李梦红++姜弋+盛锐++王路

姜弋（简称“姜”）：我注意到你的作品在展览陈列上有很多变化，在表现形式上也有时抽象，有时具象，能否谈谈你对于现代绘画在社会功能和个人表达方面的看法？

Han Nae Kim（简称“H N K”）：我们生活在任何事物都可以被轻易地发现、实现、比较、混合、崇拜以及放弃的多元化时代。在这种社会里，我们很难用传统的价值标准来衡量现在的快节奏生活。我在作品中的表达方式，多是对当下内部或外部的刺激所做的自发的、瞬间的反应（图1）。这是我所独有的记录周围生活的方式。就整个人类而言，我们通过视觉、触觉与诸多变化着的客观物体发生联系。作为一名艺术创作者，我常常被许多难以用视觉方式表达的形式所吸引。艺术家的作品无论是具象还是抽象，亦或是两者之间，它都是一种表达的形式、一种刻录时间的形式，以及对于本我的探究。我们通过观察、理解并结合以往的认知经验与图像建立联系，而当我们被这些这些图像束缚时，它们又会成为创作表达的障碍。因此，我尊重从片面的、绝对的一体化向相对的、相互的多元化转变的创作模式，并理解其重要性。

H N K： We all are living in the century where everything can be easily found， achieved， compared， mixed， adored or abandoned. It is difficult to get connected with the common threads out of what's readily available in the fast paced societies. The ways I express in my studio or in gallery spaces start from the spontaneous or rather instantaneous decisions incurred as the moments' respond to internal and external stimuli. They are my own unique recordings of what's surrounding my existence. As a human being I am related to any particular or given forms whether or not it is distinguishable through tactility or vision. As an art practitioner I am attracted to forms but sometimes they cannot be describable in a visual sense. Whether it is representational or abstract， or anywhere in between， the artist's product is a form of statement， a form of inscribed time， and the artist's self. Through understanding， observation and experiences， we become related to forms or images of forms， however， when we are bound to those forms， they become our limits. Therefore， I respect the importance in modern art for making a paradigm shift moving from a one-sided and absolute integration or unification towards mutual and relative pluralism.

姜：你的作品有较多的地方用到了天然漆，能否談谈你对这个材料的理解？

H N K：亚洲漆（天然漆）是一种取自漆树的天然材料，以耐用和稳定的特性区别于其他聚合物。天然漆可以说是东亚地区的工匠们使用最早和最多的材料之一，目前发现最早的髹漆工艺品是在中国新石器时期。

该工艺用天然漆装饰和保护由木材、纸张、玻璃、金属、陶瓷、皮革等材质制成的日常物品以及稀世珍宝的表面，至今已运用了多个世纪。这在过去需要较高的技巧和专业的匠人。该工艺在中国、韩国、日本使用较多，并在发展过程中形成各自独特的民族风格。

Christine Guth在《触觉之外：日本漆传统演绎中的知觉研究》一文中对漆的解释如下：“漆是复杂的社会、经济、审美、象征的世界的一部分，这个复杂世界的完整演绎吸引着人的听觉、嗅觉、味觉，特别是触觉。”漆器的触觉质感和感官体验在制作过程中与美学体验同样重要，如果忽略漆的感官价值，就不会真正体会到漆艺美丽的本质。然而在逻各斯文化中，“视觉”通常优先于其它感觉。在解决问题时，视觉是分析和分类的常用工具，在形式逻辑和惯性思维中起着重要作用。主流的西方思想常常将其它的感觉边缘化，如将触觉理解为直觉与非理性，并认为其不可靠且毫无价值。“艺术”作为一种形式，主要通过视觉、听觉和视听方式来表达。视觉和听觉通常被认为是接近心灵的方法，相对“高级”；而味觉、嗅觉和触觉则或多或少地受到身体的束缚。然而就像19世纪晚期原始主义者提倡物质和意识的实体主要通过触觉获得的那样，我强调在艺术中对皮肤、肌肉和触摸等感觉的表现（图2、3）。如果忽略漆艺的感官价值，就不能真正体会到漆艺美的本质。日本的Negoro漆器1通过在黑色底漆上施以红漆，通过打磨透出底色的方式提升感官品质。这种经过打磨呈现出来的残破和瑕疵有时也可以成为艺术隐喻的手段。endprint

H N K： Urushiol-based Asian lacquer is arguably one of the foremost and popular materials that has been used by artisans in the East Asian region. Lacquered items from Neolithic period was found in China， and the lacquer has been used for centuries to protect and decorate the surfaces of daily items， as well as precious artifacts. It has been practiced predominantly in the East Asian countries of China， Korea and Japan， and gradually developed into distinctive national styles. It is a natural material obtained from the Rhus Verniciflua tree saps， and is distinguished from oth-er polymers by its qualities that are defined as most durable and stable. It traditionally requires high skills and craftsmanship to use lacquer to adorn， shield and combine the surface of a diverse materials such as wood， paper， glass， metals， ceramics or leather.

In Christine Guth's essay， Out of Touch..2 lacquer is explained as follows： 'Lacquer is part of a complex social， economic， aesthetic and symbolic world whose full interpretation engages the senses of sound， smell， taste and， especially， touch.' The tactile quality of lacquer and the sensorial experience involved in the making process are equally important as the aesthetic appeal， however， in the logocentric cultures， 'seeing' is often prioritized over other senses. The eye functions as a rational tool for analyzing and categorizing， and formal logic play a role in problem solving. The Western mind has marginalized other senses， and touch for instance， is coded as primitive and feminine， intuitive and irrational that it can likely be considered unreliable and less worthy. 'Art' predominantly took a form that is visual， auditory or audiovisual， and the rest of the senses were not usually adopted as the main means. Vision and audition are most commonly considered as they are close to the mind， i.e. 'the superior' whereas gustation， olfaction and the tactile are more or less bound to body. However， I value a sense of skin， flesh and touch found in the artw-orks as that of the late 19th century primitivist's， as the substantiality of matter and awareness of what can be experienced， are learned through tactile sensations. Ignoring the sensorial value of lacquer may not arouse the genuine beauty of its materiality. Japanese Negoro； red coloured lacquer wares with black undercoat； style is a good example of heightened sensorial quality as the repeated handling of this lacquerware will eventually wear off， exposing the under layer of black lacquer in patches. The process of damage or death is metaphorically expressed through its own imperfection and mortality.endprint

李梦红（简称“李”）：中、日、韩三国有大量从事天然漆研究与创作的艺术家，能否从你的角度谈谈这些国家艺术家的整体面貌？

H N K：尽管中国、韩国和日本的传统漆艺各有特色，但他们在现代的工艺以继承为主。漆艺从属于“美术”范畴，其形式和风格相较于其国籍来说，更得益于艺术家的意图。在过去的数十年里，漆在现代艺术的影响下呈现多元化的表现形式，并运用现代语言诠释传统工艺。我认为这三个国家的现代漆艺家正处在关键时期，他们必须运用传统技法来创作并完成他们的漆艺作品，与此同时，他们还要打破传统的形式和主题，以追求漆艺独立的艺术道路，并扩大其“工艺”内涵。

H N K：Although the characteristics of traditional lacquer art in China， Korea and Japan are distinct， their approaches toward the modern day adaptation varies not so much. It has been consumed under the category of 'Fine Art' and its form and style owe agreat deal to the intention of the artist， rather than to their nationality. For the last few decades， lacquer has been practiced in a diverse range of forms with contemporary relevance， and with the modern interpretation of traditional craft techniques. I think contemporary lacquer artists in three different countries are on the verge of critical phase where they have to be using traditional techniques for constructing and finishing their lacquer objects， all the while having been broken away from the traditional forms and motifs in order to pursue independent paths of their own and to expand the notion of craft.

李：在您的作品中，特别是纸上作品有一些水墨的图式，这是否跟亚洲绘画有关系？或者跟您的家庭和生活经历有关？

H N K：思想构成形式。我的创作实践主要围绕着如何反应身体衰老的过程，以及如何通过与材料的接触唤起这一记忆，我的作品会不可避免地表现出我自己的特征或记忆的各种形式。自从上个世纪90年代我在新西兰开始艺术創作以来，我的作品已经有意识或无意识地受到自身亚洲经历的影响。在实践中，我从韩国的独特文化中所学到的不同的知识和信仰越来越受到关注。“文化通常存在于潜意识中，它用一个看不见的控制机制来左右我们的思想。”只有在不同的文化形态中我们才能意识到这种独特变化。幸运的是，我接触了新西兰文化，它为我审视自己的文化提供了角度，并根据不同的文化转变处理方法。意识到差异性通常可以更好地理解两者之间的差异，通过吸收、反刍以及融合不同的文化，可以产生新的内涵。在我对艺术作品进行效果处理的过程中，不同材料的自身变化存在着主观和客观的原因，但它们具有相互依赖性（图4、5）。

文化冲突所造成的隔阂往往会对人产生诸多心理影响，使其不由自主地进入怀疑状

态。尽管这种情况被认为应该连同社会、哲学影响一并思考，但我更质疑在多文化关系中自发的心理危机，如无效、取代、短暂、波动等感觉是如何产生并发挥作用的。

H N K：Thoughts are forms. As my practice is situated around the concerns of how the body holds its history， and how the recalled history can emerge through the act of making contact with materials， no doubt my works inevitably and naturally deliver forms of my own identity or memories. Since I started practicing art in New Zealand in the late 1990s， my work has been consciously and unconsciously influenced by my Asian background， and during my practice， different knowledge and belief I learned from the particular culture of Korea have been increasingly brought to attention. 'Culture is often subconscious； it is an invisible control mechanism which operates our though-ts.'3We become aware of ones own culture by exposure to a different culture， and luckily I have been exposed to this culture of Aotearoa， and it opened my eye to view my own culture and to adapt a different means of processing. Being aware of differences usually leads to a better comprehension of the gaps in between， and by absorbing， ruminating and contaminating cultures， meanings are newly generated. In the attempt of contaminating the materiality within my picture surfaces， the distinction between inside and outside of forms loses its validity， and all things share an interdependency.endprint

The gaps generated by cultural clashes and hybrids， often induce a variety of psychological impact on the person who goes through the involuntary challenges. Although it should be considered in conjunction with social and philosophical influences， I question how spontaneously the psychological crisis， such as a sense / state of futility， displacement， transience or oscillation is affected by and emerged especially from the multi-cultural ties.

李：您的作品經常使用不同的材料和肌理表现，这是你在创作中思考的主要问题吗？是谁影响了你的创作方向？

H N K：我对于材料的选择是无意识的自我反射，就像我经常会被一些材料吸引。当我运用这些材料创作出色调和肌理时，会给观者以“亚洲感”的印象。我一直在思考观者在我作品中看到的东方痕迹，我更愿意将其很大部分归功于我的文化背景。我探索了木炭、虫胶等材料，在新鲜、纯净、液态变污、变硬、粉碎的过程中，材料本身表现出的天然本真状态。以我的身体为媒介来调动、转换和再现已经通过所有感官感知的现象，在创作和破坏以及不断的变动之间产生动态的泡沫、溶体、流动、衰变和爆发，借助沉思的、重复的、令人着迷的媒介，我的作品在不由自主地与自身过去的纠缠中进步。在此过程中，我认为制作痕迹和创作材料本身的过程远比借助身体与肢体语言之间的关系来表达创作的结果更为重要。基于此，我的作品往往会展示出不完整的形式，并将制作过程重点表现出来。有时，我观察拥有着不同文化背景的艺术家创作的作品（不一定是我们所谓的“艺术”），经常沉迷于它们的天然状态和创作方法，特别是图像在创作过程中所展示的一种松散的结构或有节奏的内容的感觉，这种感觉由发自内心的、直观的快乐主导，如Chohreh Feyzdjou（伊朗/法国）和Jannis Kounellis（希腊/意大利）的作品。我会思考材料本身和它的使用者——艺术家之间的相互作用（图6）。

亚洲漆是我所熟悉的用在创作中相对较新的媒介。当材料本身具有丰富的历史文化，这种多用途的材料就会对艺术创作以及艺术评论赋予更多可能性的暗示。漆器制作过程是一个耗时且复杂的过程，但是它所展示的形式并非停滞以及呆笨。就如化妆品可以掩盖皮肤上的瑕疵一样，这一重复性过程——使用、打磨、绘制以及抛光天然漆，可以训练和挑战我们的身体。拥有精湛技艺的匠人已经学会强化他们的身体状态，即通过反复地思考和训练唤醒其本能和节奏。通过这样做，身体的本能也由视觉、触觉转化到本能，最终集中到外在感受（图7）。

H N K：My choice of materials is unconsciously self-reflective， as I have been continuously drawn to some materials. The palette and the texturesI create while using those materials have resulted in giving the impression of 'Asian-ness' to many viewers. I have been asking myself about the oriental tinge that other people find in my work， and I would like to argue that it owes a good portion to my cultural background. The ingenuous or modest quality and the intractable naturalness found in materials such as charcoal and shellac are explored before， during and after the change of its state from fresh， pure， clean and liquid to contaminated， residual and hard. Using my body as a vessel， a medium or as a bridge to transfer， transform， and to re-enact phenomena that have been perceived through all the senses， I investigate into the relationship between my body and the bodily gestures involved in the process of making marks， traces and ultimately activating the material itself. It is more about the process than the final product， and as a result， my works tend to show an incomplete gestalt and often their processes are brought to the fore. Through meditative， repetitive or obsessive application of the mediums， my work progresses as if it autonomously builds on itself while tangling with its past. Dynamic froths， melts， flows， decays and eruptions are generated in between creation and destruction， and within a constant flux. At times， I observe forms （not necessarily something we call ‘art） created by artists of different backgrounds， and get immersed into its nature. Especially when encountered by images in which show a sense of loose structure or rhythmic phases of the process that is maneuvered by rather visceral and intuitive jouissance， such as the works of Chohreh Feyzdjou （Iran/France） or Jannis Kounellis （Gree-ce/Italy）， I think about the efficacy of materials and the role of its handler， namely， the body of the artist.endprint

Alongside the materials I am familiar with， Asian lacquer is comparatively a newer medium I incorporate with my research practice. As the material itself is charged with its own rich culture and history， this versatile material is very suggestive of alternate possibilities in art making and critical thinking. Lacqueringprocess is time consuming and complex but it shares the structure that is not stagnant and dull. As if putting make-ups to conceal the imperfections on the skin， the careful process of applying， rubbing， defining and polishing lacquer trains and challenges my body through the obsessive actions. Artisans who achieved exceptional craftsmanship have learned to activate their bodies into intensified state. Awakening the instinc-tive energy and rhythm in art should be trained through repetitive and contemplative physical movements. And by doing so， the body experiencing visual–material–visceral sensibilities will be sublimated to a flesh， a sensorial mass.

姜：我注意到您強调创作中的偶然性，能否谈谈这种偶然性和个人创作情感之间的关系？以及在您创作中理性和感性的关系？

H N K：出自德勒兹的叙述层次体系的“块茎” 表达了即兴和偶然的概念。它所涉及的易变的形式或稍纵即逝的状态与我在作品中试图表达的形式是一致的。以“块茎”为范本，我特别地探讨了即兴创作在绘画过程中的重要性，以及它如何消解可能阻碍作品创新的压迫性思想。我作品中的瀑布和河流的走向无视自然规律，呈现出自由流动的状态。这种状态在无人干预的自然界是不会发生的。在我的作品里，这些画面连续断裂而变形，在自由的线条和形态中瞬时合成，通过元素的快速结合、碰撞、排比来表达我的想法。然而，即兴创作并不容易，因为在我们的记忆和文化中已经有了许多约定俗成的规定（图8、9）。

当直觉与感受或记忆相互交融，直觉就会变成超越时间、空间和物质的一种沟通方式。这种交错的结构作为一种记忆装置，同时揭示了可见与不可见之间的相互依赖关系。如果将每段记忆都视为严格意义上的独立整体，并且不会相互影响，那么就没有记忆可以被完整无缺地展现出来，因为它断绝了怀旧、忧郁等情绪的影响。通过使用不断变化的媒介，我在作品中使用随机符号去描绘一个诗意的生疏感：一种保持变化的多元形态。为了摆脱所有的限制，激发创作潜能，即兴创作对我来说就是艺术创作中的核心动力。因此，我认为艺术创作没有必要制定计划或者停下来思考，应该有意识地放弃一些意义建构、内容表达和精神暗示，追寻一种无意识的本能表达。

H N K：Rhizome is improvisational and accidental. It is a Deleuzian concept that speaks of the liberation from hierarchies. Rhizome entails variant forms or transient states， and these differing forms coincide with what I seek to express in my works. Considering rhizome as the model， I explore the importance of improvisation in my drawing process in particular， and how it liberates oppressive thoughts that may hinder the development of my work. The currents of waterfalls and rivers in my drawings ignore the entropy law and flow with a will of their own. This would not happen in the natural world without the intervention of a manmade manipulation. The images are morphed through continuous ruptures and partake in a multiple， momentary synthesis of free-willed lines and gestures. Individual meanings are drawn from the instantaneous combinations， encounters or juxtapositions of elements. However， it is not always easy to improvise as there are already a great number of prescriptions that are prescribed in ourendprint

memory and in the culture.

Perception becomes an act of exchange that surpasses the classification of time， space and matter， when it is intertwined with feelings or memory. This chiastic structure serves as a mnemonic device and at the same time it reveals the interdependent relations between the visible and the invisible. If each memory was distinguished as one discrete wholeness， and did not affect， mix or impact on others， no memory would be remembered in its intact form， as it would be lacking the nostalgic or melancholic affect. Using a constantly changing medium， I incorporate haphazard markings in my drawings to portray a new poetic strangeness. They are variable morphs in between change， in progress. In order to be freed of all the constraints， and activate the potential in the work， improvisation is for me， a core impetus in making art. Therefore I often feel noneed for a plan or hesitation， as if my strokes convey the impression of urgency， an internal necessity； like all

natural processes. In abandonment of conscious construction， dreams， innerscapes and psyche unveil.

注释：

1日本的一种漆器类型，在黑漆底上涂红漆，干后打磨，出現自然的黑色斑点。

2Christine Guth.Out of Touch： On the sensorial in the Historical Interpretation of Japanese Lacquer[J].American Journal of Forensic Medicine & Pathology Official Publication of the National Association of Medical Examiners，2011， 32（2）：112-118.

3Shoji Nishimura，Anne Nevgi，Seppo Tella.Communication Style and Cultural Features in High/Low Context Communication Cultures： A Case Study of Finland， Japan and India[J].Helsinkifi， issue Lc，2008：783-796.

4当代法国著名哲学家德勒兹与精神学家加塔利提出的一个重要的后结构主义思想概念。在日常生活中，块茎令人联想到马铃薯或红薯之类的植物。“块茎”的生态学特征是非中心、无规则、多元化的形态，而“树状”模式则具有中心论、规范化和等级制的特征。德勒兹将块茎作为典型的反中心或“游牧”思维，与柏拉图以来主导西方思想的“树状逻辑”恰成对比。endprint