[Interviewee] Christine Hawley

[Date] June 20, 2019

[Place] London, UK

[Interviewer] Chen Ran

Part 1 Architecture Education

Q1 Let’s trace back to the 1970s. Wha was the architecture education like when you were a student in the AA?

When I was a student in the AA, the regime was much more relaxed than the Bartlett. I think that a lot of the works were self-initiative. There was no compulsion to either attend lectures or even tutorials. So, the AA; very freewheeling. And it encouraged thicking which was right at the edge of the discipline. It was much more extreme than much of the work that has done in the Bartlett.Now if I compare the two institutions, Bartlett is extremely disciplined and very ordered. And by comparison, the AA was super relaxed.

Q2 But that was an era and a place that fostered so many influential architects.Why do you think the education was successful?

I think the education was successful because it allowed and encouraged independent thinking.What it did was asking them to take responsibility for their ideas and for the trajectory of their projects. Once you have got that authority over your own work, it means that the boundaries become much more extended. You are not really working to other people agendas; you work to an agenda which you set agreed by the college. That degree of independence I mean reals of intellectual liberation was one of the background reasons why so many people flourished. But, I do also have to make the point：except the people that you know who have been very successful, there are also lots of people that have not been successful. So it wasn’t a regime that suited everybody.

Q3 Did urban design education exist at that point at all?

Yes, it did. Urban design existed, but probably in a lecture format. I think that there were not so many people looking at either strategic or policy issues within their projects in the studio. But, this was certainly something that was talked about as a context in which you should consider your work. But, it wasn’t formalised in the way that it is now. As there wasn’t a planning school at the AA, it didn’t have its own set of qualifications. I think now if you look at urban design, it tends to be a part of the planning school programme rather than an architecture school programme. So, it was something that was an adjunct to outthinking but maybe not central.

Q4 Then you became a practising architect, and also a teacher in the AA. How do they feed in each other?

Well, I think I became a teacher far too early. I was extremely young when I was a teacher. And for me now, looking back, it is questionable in terms of what I was able to offer the students.Gradually as you built up your own experience,in terms of teaching experience but also design experience and building experience, that is what feeds into conversations you have with students.So, I would say that I was probably more confident much later in my career. I don’t think I struggled, but I think the conversations I had with students when I was very young, would be more peer-to-peer conversations rather than teacher-student conversations.

Q5 Then you became the head of University of East London School of Architecture and later you made the professor and the head of the Bartlett. How do you think the architecture education in the UK evolved step by step?

I am not sure whether it evolved ‘step by step’ in the sense that you would actually say that there were quite clear shifts from one into another. I think that it’s an organic process. When I took over East London (University of East London School of Architecture), that was not through choice. It was by default. I was somehow catapulted into the job. I knew absolutely nothing about running a school of Architecture. All I was interested in was architectural discourse and the product of the studios. So, I managed to get in some very good, actually quite eccentric but very inspirational teachers. This was what made East London—what it became eventually. I was not particularly a good bureaucrat. I did not set up or attend many meetings. I spent most of my time in the studio, talking to students, talking to the staff, and looking at the work. I think that was actually quite unusual. Most heads of schools then and certainly now tend to be much more tied up bureaucratically and administratively. I really wasn’t interested in that. So I pushed that to one side, and just authorised the only thing that I was really interested in, which is the substance of what we are doing, and the substance of we are talking about.

Then I moved to the Bartlett. The Bartlett was part of a much more established university which had a very established bureaucracy. It had very established organizational approach codes. For me that was quite a shock from the sort of freewheeling environment that I had at East London. Coming to the Bartlett was almost a new discipline. I both admire the Bartlett and UCL for the structures and the safety of its bureaucracy, and the safety and concern that it has for its students. But also, I suppose I didn’t really enjoy the amount of time that was sucked up while I was going off to one meeting after another. It was also a time when I came with Peter Cook, there was a huge upheaval in the Bartlett. A lot of old staff left. A lot of new staff aboard in. The Bartlett at that point which was in the early 1990s changed really dramatically from a school that was considered to be very safe, rather boring, rather dull, very pedestrian, to something that was much more akin to the AA. Of course both Peter and I came from the AA, and I suppose we bought the AA culture with us.

Q6 The Bartlett is ranking number one in 2019 QS World Rankings by Subject.What do you think is the critical quality that differs the Bartlett from other architecture schools?

Well, I think the first thing which is very clear is that the quality of the students is very high indeed. We get some of the brightest students applying to the Bartlett. Our architecture course attracts 2000 people for 90 places. So we are in the most privileged position to be able to pick,and choose who we want to come onto the course.We are also very attentive to things like the portfolios, which not all schools are. We are not only concerned with the grades that they have to get in their A-levels which of course is the requirement of UCL. We will also concern at what the inherent ability is that they have in drawing or any form of representational technique. So the selection process is actually quite a rigorous one.

I think that the Bartlett is super fortunate in being able to get very bright students. Also I think that it has extremely committed staff, very talented staff, and staff that do a lot of work outside teaching which is research or practise, which then is drawn back into the dialogue within the studio.I can’t over emphasize the commitment that the staff have. They go way beyond—if you like—the terms of their contracts. Because the one thing that they are concerned with is the quality of work that the students do. I think that they are very competitive, both the staff and the students. And sometimes perhaps a little too competitive.

Q7 What do you think that makes a successful student project?

First of all, I think students have got to be committed. It’s a project which uses individual imagination, which they have to take authority for. It’s also a project that challenges the status quo. One of the things that is really important for students is that they think not what existed today, but what might exist in five, or ten, or twenty years time. Architecture is a very slow profession. I think that what we have to do is that we actually have to project ourselves foreward. We have to think about the future. This is something that we encourage students to do. They have got to hypothesize. They have got to say this might be what the circumstances are in the future and then began to develop a narrative around that.

A narrative is incredibly important. There has to be a story. There has to be an understanding of a context. There has got to be an understanding of people who might be using the product that they are creating. There has got to be some understanding of the industry and how materials are produced. And I think that ultimately a good student project also relies on inherent artistic talent. It is not simply the product of somebody that is only intellectually very adept. They have to be intellectually adept, imaginative, but also they have got to have terrific eyes.

Part 2 Architecture Projects and Research

Q8 You did a research project called“Urban Collage”. You said, “drawing technique can view organic urban changes, together with historic traces from human interventions”. So can you speak more about this project?

Urban Collage was a piece of work that I did actually some years ago. It was as a response to having done some work which was very prescriptive. I think I have just finished some social housing in Germany. I felt that context was not being looked at holistically because when we talked about architectures as architects, we talked about the massing of buildings, the materials of buildings, the height of buildings, maybe some of the sociohistoric elements that adorn the façade.So what one is looking at is physicality, but what you are not looking at is the way that people use space and that is what I was interested in. I thought there’s another way to look at the city. So I said that the city’s surface needed to be read in a different way.

Therefore, I was looking at things like graffiti. I was looking at the way that posters were put up,sometimes one on top of another that talked about events that were going to happen, events that had happened, then events that had been scrolled over.Then there were messages left by one person from a group, and one person from another. Actually there were stories that built up which would to do with the way that people interacted. It was an area in south London where I lived. There is a lot of economic deprivation. There is a lot of tension particular with young people, and a lot of them actually utilised the surface of the city as a blackboard. A blackboard on which they can actually express some of the frustrations they have in life. I felt that this was actually a very important aspect in terms of the way we read the city. It wasn’t just to do with buildings. It wasn’t just to do with—you know—observe the height, observe the mass, observe the utility. It was about what do you read on the surface, which was not to do with the things architects design?

So, that for me was really important. So, I did a photographic diary of the area. I did it very very extensively, and then began to do a project on the empty site in southeast London that brought in a lot of references from the photographs, but also utilised the materials from the site. So I built up these designs with the stuff that I found on the ground with litter, with sand, with pieces of wire,with pieces of burned metal. And it was the first time that I had ever done the design which wasn’t done with a rotring pen and paper. It was actually done with these waste materials. And I felt it was telling a story about what I have seen, what I have read, the sort of ghost of people that past through the space, and the way in which it could be expressed via an architectural design, but not in an orthodox manner of representation. Does that tell you something about it?

Q9 As your student, I learnt from you about how important the context is. An architect should take into consideration not just the physical settings but also the cultural, social, even economic and political context. So can you briefly describe how do you look at the context for a site by taking an example from one of your project?

I would take an example at the moment my husband and I are designing a building for a site next to our own house, which is a place that we hope we are going to move into. We have to look at the site and the nature context in terms of physically how it’s constrained. This is a very tight site with very particular problems attached to it.We also looked at the history of the site, and the history of urban development over the last maybe 100 years. Then we began to say how we could actually reflect that within the design. Sometimes it’s reflected physically. Sometimes it’s reflected on the surface of the walls. But we are looking at many aspects of what has actually gone on in our area, both socially, economically and politically.The other thing which was very important in our area was the introduction of the railway line,because that actually brought development into the area at the end of the 19th century. So that becomes something which was quite significant in terms of the planning of the project. I think that we talk quite extensively about the nature of the place, the nature of its history, the nature of the community that exists around it, the nature of what it might be in the future, the conflicts that exist between the different socio-economic groups. And we asked ourselves how can we reflect that within the macro and also the manual aspects of design.

Q10 You have done many extraordinary projects. Which one is your favourite?

Oh, that is a really difficult question! I suppose the project that I learnt the most from would be the social housing that I did in Gifu, Japan. I think that although it probably isn’t my favourite design. I actually learnt more from that than I had from many other projects because I was building in a different cultural context. I was building with a different set of building approach code. I was building with a different set of economic approach code. And I was also building together with three other female architects, all of which have to observe what each other was doing. So there was a terrific dialogue that went on between the four of us but also with Arata Isozaki as well. And I think that these sorts of evolution of that dialogue influenced the way in which the design was done.I think there were certain aspects of it that I’m really thrilled with because it was very low cost.You know, you had to make very small moves in order to influence the way that the design develops. And I think social housing is probably one of the most difficult briefs that you would ever have because there is so little money. It is so tight, and it is so prescriptive. However, yes, I enjoy it when I look back on it and think that it was a really nice piece of work for me.

Part 3 Insights for the UK and China

Q11 As we are talking about social housing, I would like to add another question about the Thamesmead development.It was a great vision, and it was like a brother for Barbican. Why do you think Barbican is successful, but not Thamesmead?

I think location. I think that one of the things about Barbican is it’s right in the center of London. And I know quite a lot of people have flats in the Barbican, and they absolutely love it. And they say that, you open your door, you can go to the theatre. You can go to the cinema. You can go to good restaurants. You can experience everything that London offers. I think that I can’t stress that more infacticly. The problem with Thamesmead is that it is built very much in isolation. So if you think about the gestation of London, the fact is that it has been built up over a couple of thousand years. And we are looking at history, we are looking at recent history. We are looking at past history. We are looking at current culture. And then you look at Thamesmead. Thamesmead was built virtually on a flat open piece of ground very recently. And literally it doesn’t have the richness that London has in terms of all of the infrastructure, all of the cultural offerings. I think that is why the Barbican is successful. I think location,and London is very important.

Q12 London is a place you know so well.And London is a place that can attract people from all over the world. So what do you think makes it so attractive?

Well, I think that it’s a great magnet for businesses that have multi-cultural or global connections. I mean, remember that the city—not just the city of London—but London has a lot of businesses where the rich of those businesses are global. It’s not local at all. And therefore, there is a need to bring in people who have got the knowledge. Perhaps somebody who is working in China. They need to bring in people that have got Chinese background. Or they need to bring in people that are working with the European context. And I think that there is actually a need that London businesses have to bring people in from outside. So, that was the first thing.

And once that it was established as a principle—it acts as a magnet to bring in more people from outside. I think also culturally there was a huge amount that is offered not just by indigenous London culture, but now it’s a melting pot of culture that has been bred by the global commuties, communities from China, communities from Japan,Korea, Europe, South America, you name it. Of course the African culture. Huge numbers of people come from the African continent. I think that they established cultural routes here. That is very important. They are not just people that are in transit. They are people that actuallly set their roots in London. They brought up the first generation in London, second generation in London, and actually they considered themselves to be Londoners. Although, culturally their backgrounds are from somewhere else. And that now is very established. I think that also begins to attract other people to come in.

I think that London offers enormous opportunities for people to work in global enterprises. It offers people the possibilities to establish cultural enterprises here. And there are a lot of multi-cultural offerings which are in or around London, which I think again makes it attractive. I don’t think it is a parochial city.

Q13 Do you think the urban design of London helps during a process?

I think it can. I think urban design act at strategic level is really interesting. Strategically, a lot of boroughs look at what the socio-economic needs were, look at things like ethnicity. They look at housing deprivation. They look at employment rates. They look at the provisions of the school.They look at all sorts of things which were actually essential to support wide communities. I think that if you look at the planning departments and the strategic thinking that they have, that is actually very critical. It is not just confined to the whys of where falls physical development. I think that is much more complex than that. In terms of infrastructure, they also work alongside other boroughs, but also Londonwide as well. So I think there are many levels in which urban planning strategies can operate and I think that it is one of the ways in which London can be strategically organized and hopefully strategically efficient.

Q14 Do you think there is any challenges for the development of London?

I think that the challenges are the space is running out. There is almost no space to develop at all—I mean in physical terms. One of the things which is very interesting are the new policies that look at residual ground. Look at ground which may belong to a household which is not being built on, or for example, residual ground that has been allocated for car parking which is not being used.I think this now is going to be the target for physical development.

I think that the other big challenge—and this is not just for planners but for architects—is to ask ourselves how do we use buildings? How we are going to use it more efficiently and effectively in the future? I think that one of the things that we have to consider is the way we work. Because I don’t think in 20 years time people will automatically be going to a workplace. There will be far more remote working. I think people will be much more mobile. Young people will be prepared to move much more readily. People will be working at home. Therefore, that devide between home and the workplace will be very blurred. And I think that then we have actually got to think really imaginatively about how we use the building stock in London. And we may not be using it in a way that is being used at the moment.

Q15 The next question is something about your vision for London in 50 years.We had a lot of student projects about the future of London in the Bartlett. So I am wondering what is your vision?

I think that London is going to be much more sustainable. There will be a veto certainly on all forms of transport that use carbon or fossil fuels.The use of electricity or the use of sustainable energy will be much more paramount. People will be looking at how to create green space in London. And I think one of the problems that has been developed over the last 15 years is that we have been building hard surfaces. Therefore,issues such as rainfall and drainage have become a real issue. It means that things like flooding become much more prevalent, because we don't have a lot of pour surfaces within London. A lot of surfaces which at the moment may be hard and inpenetrable will actually be broken up. So I think that greening London will become very important. Probably the plantings of trees are looking at things like there are oxygen emission, and their carbon absorption will become much greater.

For the next generation and the generation after,sustainability will be a very very important issue.It will affect planning. It will affect architecture.It will affect the economics of buildings. And I think that there would be extraordinary changes in terms of the way that we utilised buildings, but really also the way that we utilised space—open space. That will be different.

Q16 You have been to so many places around the world, for teaching and for practising. So, which city impresses you the most?

It's such a difficult question! I mean they are all interesting! I think the one that I really love because it is so vibrant is Hong Kong. I love Hong Kong, because I suppose there is a very clear distinction between the sort of western culture which is there, and the Chinese culture, which is very very prevalent. I am comparing that to Singapore which I have just come back from after four months, which tends to be extremely westernized.And I think that is something that Hongkong has resisted. I think that it's inherent links with China is something which I find really interesting. I think that the politics of Hongkong are very sensitive at the moment. But it has a vibrancy and an energy. In some ways I think that I like the fact that life is also extemporized in Hongkong which certainly isn't in a lot of other Asian cities. So, for me, I think that, yeah, it probably is. It really is one of my favourite cities. It is wonderfully energetic.

Q17 Currently many Chinese cities are facing challenges like building up big towers for social housing. From your experience, do you have any advice on social housing in China?

I think you have to again actually look at the very recent past—I mean, 2 years ago—there was a terrible fire at Grenfell Tower in London. It highlighted one of the huge problems of actually building high-rise housings. High-rising housing essentially is not problematic as long as you observe all of the safeguards that need to be put in place. If you don't, it is catastrophic as Grenfell demonstrated. And I think that you have to be extremely careful about the number of people that you are building for. You have to be very careful about means of escape. You have to put in place as much as you possibly can to ensure that if there are any accidents at all, people can get out of high-rise housings safely. And I think that Grenfell will now put people off high-rise. They would have inherent fear of tall blocks and they would have inherent fear for their safety.

I think that China also needs to be very observant about the safety of everybody that is living above—probably 5 or 6 stories. So that for me is the most important aspect. The reality of living right at the top of the tower with very little pollution, with fantastic views, with incredible sense of visual freedom, is wonderful, but there is this lingering fear that many people would have,which is what happens if there is a fire? How do I get out? How do I make sure my family is safe?And that has got to be really the main priority for anybody that designs high-rise housings.

Part 4 Suggestions for the new generation

Q18 What are the challenges and opportunities for the new generation of architects and urban designers? Do you have any advice or suggestions?

I think that the challenges are to look at the status quo and go beyond that, and to say, “what is it that works well now” and “what is it that doesn’t work well” ? And if it doesn't work well, you have to ask yourself why. And then you actually have to say, what are the alternatives? What could I imagine might be in its place? And I think that we have to rethink housing in particularly. The demand for housing is absolutely colossal. We are not meeting it at all. Are there opportunities to refurbish empty properties of which there is a lot, and it is just left like empty? Are there ways in which we could utilise properties in a more efficient way? I mean, those are some of the challenges, rather than just looking for greenfield sites to build new development.

We have got to really look at first principles in terms of housing, and to look at a whole range of ways in which we could offer accommodation to people of different generations. What you need when you are a young person is actually quite different from what you need when you are a very elderly person. It is down to both the planners and also the architects and urbanists of any shade to think very carefully about what makes good communities. You know, what do we do to actually encourage people to live multi-generationally?What do we do to encourage, for example, the older generation to help the younger generation with child care? What do we do to integrate schools into communities? How do we actually build communities for the future? That's probably the most important thing.

Q19 Do you have any suggestions for the young generation of teachers in architecture?

Listen carefully to your students. That is the most important thing. I think listen very carefully to your students. The next generation of teachers need to establish a discourse with the students.It is not to do with imparting knowledge. It is to do with sharing ideas. And I think that once you get ideas from students, it’s something that you can then use as a springboard for the next stage of works. So, listen to your students very very carefully!